My Rollin K. Daniel Experience

Helping others

2012-01-21T20:04:00.000-08:00

This post repeats a lot of what I have posted on the Internet, outside of this blog. I’ve been meaning to add this here for a while. I’m not going to pretend I’m some kind of expert on any of this; it’s just based on what I have seen and experienced.

Click “read more” to continue...

Picking a doctor

There is no one miracle worker for every case out there. I wish with all my heart there was. It is best to consult with a LOT of doctors. Really spend a lot of time on this, travel if needed. It can take years, and be pretty horrible. Try to get a doctor referral, and consider using a surgery consultant.

Other patients’ experiences

I’d watch out for old photos or reviews, unless they showcase some big problem with the doctor and not just the procedure that day. Do the pictures on the doctor’s site ever change? Can you see a trend in the reviews?

Email other patients who have left reviews on Yelp, RateMDs, etc. http://messageboards.makemeheal.com/rhinoplasty/thomas-t125574-30.html#p1203059 If they had a bad experience, they might be reluctant to respond. If the reviewer or poster is an astroturfer, they may not respond at all. Several people have told me they suspect that some of the “concern trolls” (their term) who email them may be working for the doctors, especially if they ask about their surgery date.

The “new star” – all of a sudden, a doctor no one has heard of is suddenly having multiple glowing reviews all over. All their patients seem thrilled. I would say to wait at least a year, year and a half for the initial wave to calm down and see if any troubling patterns emerge. Just give it time and maybe you can get them during the sweet spot of their medical career. It is very easy to get excited about someone new who seems great, or even someone old who is suddenly getting lots of hype. I really hope you are luckier than I was.

Online reviews

I suggest you research reputation managers, doctoring the web, and astroturfing.

Check out this post by the late Dr. Frank Ryan (RIP):
http://dr-frank-ryan.blogspot.com/2009/12/truth-about-message-boards-and-plastic.html

I would take reviews from people in the early post-op period with a grain of salt, since swelling can hide a lot of things.

Also, watch out for the neg-poz-poz pattern: http://messageboards.makemeheal.com/rhinoplasty/are-the-reviews-ratemds-com-trusted-t136169.html#p1079005 , and for disappearing negative reviews and reviewers – they may have been legally threatened, sued, or offered a settlement with an attached gag order. Here’s a list a blogger compiled of doctors who sued patients: http://blog.ericgoldman.org/archives/2011/09/request_for_hel.htm

Disappearing positive reviews may also signal that there is some astroturfing happening if the review site is weeding out fake reviews, although this is controversial. Yelp.com seems to have a good, if a bit overly zealous filter from what I can tell. Their reviews seem the most accurate to me at this time. Check out this video about Yelp: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dqi-jjbEKcs

General red flags

My experience on red flags and consent forms in other posts here may also be helpful to other patients with other doctors.

If the doctor is being disrespectful to you or other patients in the consult, do you think that doctor will improve after the surgery, especially if you have complications? The saying about how “only surgical skills matter, I don’t care about bedside manner” may not be true for every surgeon out there.

The office staff may give you some clues, too:
http://messageboards.makemeheal.com/rhinoplasty/have-found-possible-help-michigan-t139245.html#p1092843

http://messageboards.makemeheal.com/rhinoplasty/flipping-mad-insight-please-t149936.html#p1166919

Robyne on PlasticSurgerySpot wrote about this: http://www.plasticsurgeryspot.com/nose-surgery-primary-revision-rhinoplasty/1221-advice-best-rhinoplasty-surgeon-please-2.html

To me, one of the acid tests is, how does that doctor react when the patient is legitimately unhappy? http://messageboards.makemeheal.com/rhinoplasty/two-great-doctors-very-different-reasons-help-t153947.html#p1201905

Is it difficult to communicate with them? This can be a real problem down the road if you have complications and need help. Have you heard of botched patients who suddenly can’t get a return call or email?

Has there been a big change in attitude at any point? Did they go from nice to nasty, or vice versa, or have you heard that about them from other patients who had problems? http://messageboards.makemeheal.com/rhinoplasty/flipping-mad-insight-please-t149936.html#p1166885

I suggest you research confirmation bias in medicine.

Consent forms (hidden gag contracts)

http://messageboards.makemeheal.com/rhinoplasty/medical-gag-order-t141277.html

http://messageboards.makemeheal.com/rhinoplasty/beware-papers-you-sign-intellectual-property-t141260.html

Patients should keep an eye out for the word “copyright” in consent forms. In the examples posted online at MMH, the key phrase of this is located in the middle of a large paragraph. Ars Technica did an article on this topic: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2011/05/all-your-reviews-are-belong-to-us-medical-justice-vs-patient-free-speech.ars A website has been set up to help patients understand these forms: http://doctoredreviews.com/

These types of forms have been called things like, “Mutual Agreement to Maintain Privacy”, so it is not like they have “GAG ORDER” printed on there. The copyright stuff is buried in the forms. Google the phrase 'mutual agreement...' and you can see some on doctors’ websites. If you can, request that their consent forms be mailed to you at the time you make the first appointment.

Residency programs
Check out which PS programs in the area may have residents rotating through. You may need to check BOTH the Plastic Surgery and Plastic Surgery-Integrated programs for EACH school nearby to see if your surgi-center might have residents rotating there:

http://www.acgme.org/adspublic/ <- click on “Accredited Programs” under “Search” to start. This can be tedious, but at least you’ll know whether a “private” clinic or surgi-center has residents.

Many of the best surgeons also train others. There seems to be no reliable way to find out if a particular surgeon is directing a fellowship with another doctor.

I wish you luck and I hope this post benefits other people.

Bellamoore on MMH - working with PS?

2011-06-17T16:39:00.000-07:00

I believe I found out that someone working with plastic surgeon(s) had created a blog about a year ago in July, 2010 named

http://myrollindanielmdexperience.blogspot.com

i.e., extremely similar in name to this blog. This blog was posted several times on the Make Me Heal rhinoplasty board by a poster with the username Bellamoore.

If I was right, I think it is odd that Bellamoore posted for a whole year on Make Me Heal, heavily promoting Dr. Daniel in nearly every post, without mentioning her affiliation. This other blog was also posted on two doctor ratings sites that I am aware of: RateMDs.com and the doctor ratings section of Make Me Heal.

I posted on 6/17/11 about what I had found on Make Me Heal.

Update 6/27/11: The Make Me Heal poster Bellamoore's blog has been removed from Blogspot since my initial post about this topic, from what I can see. Also, some of her posts at Make Me Heal have been edited.

Update 7/14/11: provisional edit based on talks in progress; also because the other blog was taken down.

The other surgeon, consent forms, and trust

2010-07-17T18:05:00.000-07:00

Pics:http://www.flickr.com/photos/53706952@N04/

http://s776.photobucket.com/home/m130nose

Why did things go like they did in my case with this great surgeon? I wish I knew.

-assistants and observers. The consent form I signed at Dr. Rollin Daniel’s allowed for assistants and observers. I found out the name of the other surgeon who was there several months afterwards.

The Newport Beach Surgery Center and this doctor have both assured me that he or she only observed my procedure so as to learn from a great surgeon. UC Irvine has observerships so that new doctors can learn from experienced ones. They also said something about UCI PS residents working at the NBSC. Maybe I am not understanding something, because I thought the NBSC was private.

[edited 7/26-28/10 per request. But did the presence of the other doctor affect things? Like, if they suspected I might cancel based on all my preop calls to the office, is that why the thing with Dr Topkis happened, so they wouldn't lose face? Was there a fee involved? Why did somebody say, "why is it breathing like that?" as I came around?]

- secondary nasal surgery form: the line about paying over and over again. It’s at the bottom of the form, under “third.” Dr Daniel told me before the primary that I would only pay once. So, after I had signed that form saying I was financially responsible for “any subsequent surgery,” (and was fool enough to pay another $3k) what would his financial incentive be to do a good job?

-the word “possible”. The description of my surgeries starts off, cosmetic/ functional septorhinoplasty with possible this possible that, etc. At my revision preop Dr Daniel stated directly to me that he would do a certain thing… and then it didn’t happen.

He said to my face, “as far as your turbinates, I’m going to go ahead and outfracture those”. But the form said that was possible. And it didn’t get done. I think I am up to 3 doctors now who have confirmed this.

That was supposed to be the main goal of my revision, btw, to fix my breathing. My breathing still sucks. I sit here sometimes pulling sideways on my cheek to open my breathing. This is called the “Cottle sign,” and when I said that to Dr Daniel he said, “don’t know too much.”

This is an amazingly talented, world-renowned plastic surgeon, and I truly hope that others have a better experience than I did. As I posted on MMH, he has had thousands of happy patients, and I wish I could have been one of them.

RateMDs ratings - Drs. Daniel and Topkis

2010-07-13T11:51:00.001-07:00

http://www.ratemds.com/doctor-ratings/38174/Dr-Rollin-K.-Daniel-NEWPORT-BEACH-CA.html

1 3 1 1

"Dr. Daniel did my primary and revision. Another surgeon was at my revision who I never met, but UCI has a program to allow observers at NBSC. Dr Daniel didn’t talk to me after the 45-minute revision. He didn’t outfracture my turbinates like he said he would at the revision preop. I STILL have the breathing problem from the primary. And I paid another $3k! See my review for Dr Jeff Topkis. I wish I had run like 12/4 did. I am editing this as I learn more about what happened to me. I just want to know why they did what they did.
Pics: http://s776.photobucket.com/home/m130nose
Blog: http://myrollindanielexperience.blogspot.com/"

[edited after I spoke to the other doctor and UCI]

http://www.ratemds.com/doctor-ratings/118145/Dr-Jeff-Topkis-NEWPORT-BEACH-CA.html

3 3 1 1

"Watch him carefully. I saw Dr. Topkis fuss with my IV pole, running a syringe barrel along the palm of his left hand (back of his hand to the nurses, palm towards me) with the tip of his middle finger on the pole and inject something in the side of my tube. It could have been Versed. This was BEFORE I could talk to Dr Rollin Daniel, and I was thinking of cancelling. I saw Topkis look around, and when the nurse Denise returned he snapped at her to ask if she’d run the antibiotics when a bubble of air went into me. I saw him take the syringe off which probably caused the bubble, then he put it back on. I wish I could have cancelled and left, but I wasn’t aware enough. I don’t know if Daniel told him to do this. I had wanted Dr Soni again, but Amy at Dr Daniel’s office discouraged me from requesting her. Lesson learned: don’t leave anything major to discuss on surgery day. Also don’t let T pull the gown off one arm before starting the IV unless you are an exhibitionist- m130"

Two tiers and red flags

2010-07-05T19:33:00.000-07:00

Pics: http://s776.photobucket.com/home/m130nose

It SEEMS to me that Dr Rollin Daniel has two tiers of service: some people get his A game, which can be the best there is, and other people don’t. Guess which category I was in. So here are what I THINK are red flags I had with him:

- him or his staff being rude. You’ll notice his happy patients are, for the most part, perplexed when they hear about him being mean. Some of his happy patients call him “direct.” “Your nose would work in Oklahoma!” “You have to live with it!” “How tall are you?” (asked several times, I believe to shut me up) “Are you sure you have the same parents?” (said about my sister). Judy holding the check up to my face and saying, “is this good?” It’s probably better to sass back at him rather than taking it like I did.

- his office staff asking me, “have any children?" "are you working, [name]?" at the revision preop, right at the end. As I found out later, this is a good gauge for someone’s value in a lawsuit, because the first question attorneys ask is, “what are your economic damages?” MAJOR, major red flag.

-him deliberately taking a smiling photo of me. This was after I figured out the “goal” problem, so I don’t know if they were trying to get “proof” I wasn’t upset. To get the smile, Dr Daniel was super nice to me for the first time at that visit, and made a funny comment about camera technology since his regular camera was broken.

- not taking pictures of the side where he was going to do work.

- office staff distracting me with conversation as I tried to read and sign the forms (I’ll talk about this more when I talk about his consent forms).

- him (I believe; he denied it) getting my “goal” wrong, but there’s no way to figure this out until the 1-year appointment when he asks point blank, “do you think you look better? Do you think [your goal was reached]?” The best thing to do would be to ask what he has down as your goal ASAP, because that is what he will start each postop visit with. “Oh, you look [like you reached your goal].” His office girls ask you this when you first call, but they don’t use the word “goal.” I believe they wrote down something that I never said, and misinterpreted what I DID say, which screwed everything up.

I believe they got my “goal” wrong which really led to all of this, because if I had had that goal it would have been weird and “borderline” as he said. He said my defect was small compared to my concern, and that I was borderline, and showed me a little chart he drew. He showed it to my sister at the next pre-op appointment as well.

-him calling me “borderline”. As I found out later, this is a MEGA bad term in medicine. It basically means NUTS. At the time, I thought it just meant I was OK looking enough, and a nose job wouldn’t do too much. I seriously shake my head at how ignorant and trusting I was. Why would he accept a patient who truly was borderline?

-being asked to draw my own picture. I’m not actually sure if there is a correlation here. But HE should draw your picture. He’s the pro, not you.

- he seemed very reluctant to fix the problems from the primary. At my one year appointment, he had those blue hair clips on me for photos when I piped up about my breathing problem from the primary. He took a look inside my nose and said, “I really wish I hadn’t looked in there.” This should have been a big clue to me that he was not happy about going in there again.

-he asked me for another large fee for the revision. He told me before the primary that I would only pay once. He also asked if I had insurance. I paid an extra $3k because I thought it would make him finally be “nice” to me and do a good job. Geez, how stupid was I.

Actually, this all is like a public service to HIM, so he only works on patients he likes. I know he turns people away, so this could be a self-screening thing for other “borderline” patients.

As I posted on MMH, I went to him because I wanted a good result. I never thought I'd be in this situation, because I know how great he was. It is not a fun place to be. :-(

Why?

2010-07-01T01:15:00.000-07:00

Let me first say that before I figured out what happened at my revision, I felt Dr. Rollin Daniel was a great surgeon. I still think he is great for some people. I'm just not one of them.

This is more of a placeholder than anything else. I did not have a good experience or outcome. If I ever post photos, they will be at http://s776.photobucket.com/home/m130nose

My username on Make Me Heal was m130, if you want to look for my posts. There was a glitch where I couldn't log in and thought I had been banned. It looks like I changed my username to ml30 (with an L).

Coincidentally, Dr. Daniel started advertising on MMH at the same time (late June, 2010), when to my knowledge he had never advertised anywhere before in his long career.

I also posted on Miss J's forum, and on RateMDs with the same username; mostly comments to Dr. Daniel's ratings.

The situation is unfortunate. I would much rather have gone on with my life in peace.